Time for a healthy debate?

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Time for a healthy debate?

Post by GillianK on Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:32 am

Just thought I'd start a friendly debate and anyone interested can give their thoughts.

I find animal testing to be cruel, yet at the same time recognise the health benefits humans have gained from it. Obviously our own special pets, our rats are a favourite for animal testers and it is estimated that 100 million rats and mice are killed each year through animal testing. Below is an example of one test.

This rat is being deprived of restful REM sleep by an animal researcher. He is using a single platform technique, which involves placing a tiny platform inside a flowerpot. The base of the flowerpot is filled with water, right up to within 1 cm of the small platform where the rat sits. The rat is then left there. At the onset of REM sleep, the exhausted rat will either fall into the deep water only to clamber back to its little platform to avoid death from drowning, or its nose will become submerged into the water startling it back to an awakened state. And so the rat is totally unable to sleep.

This is done to test the effects of sleep deprivation, the stages the rat goes through and how long it takes till death ... Now I personally suffer from insomnia. Some nights I do not sleep at all for it is time to get up by the time I can persade myself to fall asleep, others I get approximately 3-4 hours sleep. It is not enough but it is the way I am so I understand how difficult it is not to get the sleep you need, and believe this would be a most horrible death. However, it is done in the name of science.

When you look at the rat in this picture, what do you see? An act of cruelty or a necessary and worthwhile experiment?

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Catz on Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:45 am

I'll have to have a think about this one but I just wanted to tell ya that if your interested in experiments like this then you'll love the book "Elephants on Acid". Its full of weird and wonderful studies. some involving animals. Amazing read Smile
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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by GillianK on Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:49 am

lol I'm definitely not! Hate reading about animals being hurt in any way. I hate it so much I'm vegetarian. Just thought it'd make an interesting debate is all, and chose this one cause I have insomnia. But thanks anyway. :-)
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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Zoundz on Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:37 am

A very interesting debate indeed (and a request here to keep it friendly folks Wink).

I am personally pro vivisection for medical research. Never ever for cosmetic purposes - but I think it's a worthy sacrifice. Especially when I think how many people and animal benefit each year from the medications etc that come about as a result.

Feel free to start a debate on vegetarianism Wink

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by redrach on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:01 am

I agree with zoundz, animal testing for medicine in a scientific setting is fine with me. As for vegetarianism, huge amounts of animals die each year harvesting fruit & veg so i think it's a sham & veganism pisses me off to be honest.
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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by GillianK on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:08 am

lol. I have had so many debates on vegetarianism over the 16 odd years I've been one that I am positively bored with it. I can't even tell people I'm vegetarian without them having an opinion on it, and starting a debate with me.

This is not to say I won't at some point. But I'd rather eat meat right now than start yet another debate justifying my diet. And that is saying something!!! lol. I guess I'm just bored with repeating the same facts and getting the same responses ... and I really don't care what anyone thinks of my dietary choice, just as I don't care what others eat! Smile

BUT I am interested in peoples opinions on animal testing atm! Interesting responses so far. I thought being a rat forum, responses would be different, but interesting!
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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Zoundz on Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:12 pm

That's OK Gillian - I know exactly how you feel - as being a meat eater, I often get the same constant debate from people... how can I claim to love animals if... etcetc - so I know where you're coming from Smile If anyone wants to start a debate though, do feel free Smile

I think having read so much of the absolute and utter bollocks that PETA come out with - I will do just about anything now to disagree with them - and their stance on animal testing shows just how poorly informed, and quite frankly mad, they all are!

xx

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by redrach on Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:25 am

I agree on the PETA front, they are insane!
Someone said to me not that long ago how can I claim to love my pets and animals when so many are suffering due to testing, my eating meat etc. My point is that I don't agree with animal abuse. It's disgusting. But for hundreds of thousands of years people have ate meat (and from a religious point of view -although i am not religious- animals and nature are here for man's use. I refuse to be a part of a recent decision to not eat meat 'because it's not fair on the animals'. Abuse is not fair, don't misread this. But eating an animal is a human's entitlement as a predator, just as cats eat rats and rats eat insects. Similarly, I have a great respect for animals because they have provided us with important scientific evidence, cures for various illnesses and a better understanding of these things. At the same time, I do not draw a differentiation between humans and animals here, i'm all for testing on humans too, as long as (as with animals) it is done humanely.
Basically, I see all animals be it humans, dogs or cows, as animals. We all deserve to be treated with respect and we all have to understand that we are part of a food chain.
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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by GillianK on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:34 am

You see I find animal testing to be cruel as it does involve the abuse of animals ... BUT I can't sit here and be a hyprocrite for eg a couple of months ago my silly big mare got spooked, went a little crazy (she's only 6, bless her) and unseated me. I came off and I broke my elbow. I got an xray to see the damage (xrays would have been tested on animals to see to affects and damage it could do) and then I took nurofen and paracetamol to ease the pain the first few days (all would have been tested on animals) If I decided to take a stance against animal testing, I would have to refuse virtually all medical treatments for my own moral purposes?

How many rats died to produce the antibiotics I am currently administering to my own rat? (even tho sadly it's not doing much good for her)

However, as you mentioned I am particular about cosmetics I use, cleaning products I use. I cannot condone anything unless it is NECESSARY. And I would love to see the day when animal testing ceases to be necessary.

As for the rat in the picture tho, I wonder why health benefits or knowledge we gained from this single rat's suffering and death.


Last edited by GillianK on Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Lew on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:43 am

I've deleted several posts from this thread. Any more petty bickering and the thread will be locked and suspensions may also be handed out. Try to debate like adults from now on please.

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Catz on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:47 am

Lew wrote:I've deleted several posts from this thread. Any more petty bickering and the thread will be locked and suspensions may also be handed out. Try to debate like adults from now on please.

Aww I missed all the drama Cool
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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by katherine on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:18 am

Catz wrote:Aww I missed all the drama Cool

Haha same Roll Eyes ah well. My personal opinion is that I'm 100% against animal testing UNLESS it's testing a product that will directly benefit that species. I'm against it for testing human medication because I think it's cruel and more than anything unnecessary. There is software that mimics human tissues and how they react that is much much more accurate than any animal test - and has been for years, and all species react differently - the AIDS vaccine is a classic example where animal testing of human medication killed lots of people, because the researchers were unaware than chimps and other high primates don't react to HIV/AIDS even after being infected and testing positive for the virus. I'm not slagging off the researchers here - every experiment is trial and error but the fact remains that people die from medication that has been proved safe through animal tests all the time when there are humane, accurate alternatives that simply cost more and that makes my blood boil.

I'm for behavioural research (though within ethical limitations, again it has to benefit the species, or else not harm the individual).

As for vegetarianism, I don't get why it annoys some people that others are vegetarians Confused I used to be. I'm not any more. I wont eat anything that's been intensively farmed though because I disagree with that, so no battery eggs/ broiler chicken etc.

That's my opinion anyway, I'm not having a go at anyone here.

A very good thread (I bet you're a good one to have at dinner parties Gillian Wink )

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Zoundz on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:25 am

I was under the strong impression that actually the computer models are *not* all that accurate much of the time, and can be very prone to error - so animal testing is still needed at least on top of it to verify that the tested item is not going to kill someone/some animal?

I must say I find it interesting about how anti vivisection Lush are, however they do use some products tested on animals in their ingredients... Meh

I'm not anti veganism, but I have to say I've always thought vegetarianism is a bit hypocritical - as dairy directly funds the veal trade, which is dire... Meh so unless vegetarian for reasons of health or taste, it's actually doing no good to the animals at all. Personally, I would far ratehr support good farming methods, and do so where I can. This promotes a healthy countryside (to me that's vitally important), and keeps people in jobs.

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by katherine on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:54 am

I agree that I would much rather support good farming methods - which is why I do - or try to anyway. I haven't heard that about the computer modelling, I heard they were ridiculously accurate, just extremely expensive, but then this is such a strongly debated subject I guess people from different standpoints offer different facts so it's hard to get the whole story.

Yes the dairy industry is incredibly cruel, one of the cruelest there is, I think. We have 5 bucket fed calves at the college and they are darlings, but it's so tough to go in there and see them sucking on each other's faces, fur, peoples hands etc and know that the instinct for some contact with their mum is so strong Sad *wibble*

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Zoundz on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:27 am

It's dreadful what happens with young calves, I would far rather support good farmers... and I know there are some individuals who actually foster calves onto other mothers rather than veal them - but that's not ideal either of course - and there are very slim few who do it. Unfortunately it's the major downside of dairy - I do try to keep dairy use to a minimum and my preferred cheese is goats lately, which isn't so bad. I would be very upset to see good quality small farms go under, purely because of the good they can do for the environment. This is why I try to avoid shopping at places like Tesco, and prefer to support small local co-ops if I can. Not always of course, but when I get the chance. I certainly don't do battery eggs.

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Francois on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:16 pm

I decided not to respond straight away after I first saw this thread, I'm sure my post would have been removed Tongue

Nevertheless I had a good deep breath of a full 24 hours, so I'm going to give it a gamble. Smile

First of all, this forum will mostly be visited by people who love rats Kiss We love them so much, we change the toys in their cages, let them eat our furniture and let them widdle over our best friends and family who were foolish enough to come around ranging time. ("aaah, how cute, your being marked Love )

The idea, of having one of the friendlinest animal I know, be put through such a horrific death, is something that does touches me, but I will try to refrain from letting my emotional response get in the way.

Also the results of this research in the effects of insomnia, will severily be tainted by the fact that not only you deprive sleep, you deprive on interaction.
Fastest way to make ratty depressed and going around the bend is deny his the companion of his own, and other stimulance.
This stress might just be what kills ratty, not the sleep deprivation.... Cry

Now I have been involved in sceintific research myself (although I just did the number cruching and parameter checks) and I can see a good controlled experiment when I see it.
This is not one of them.

However, if the experiment never took place, and this actual posting would have been an experiment to see how human beings react, then I think it would be a great experiment, but you can not disclose that (as to ruin the experiment) Big Grin

But yes, it is a fact that experiments on ratties have contributed to the achievements of medicine, I wouldn't object that that.
But this experiment and not a good one all together and it makes me sad when ratty has to die pointlessly.


See? I could do it without calling names Smile

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Re: Time for a healthy debate?

Post by Markopolo on Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:56 am

ill do my best to look at this subject from a logical standpoint rather then an emotional one.

i can see why rats are used for such experiments, very cost effective experimenting on rats and mice (fruit flies being another one) compared to other big animals and replicating human cells. They also breed very rapidly so the drugs they use on their rats can be documented for any defects in their offspring. More importantly (for the scientists anyway) they dont hear much out an outcry from the public about rats being considered vermin by most people sadly.

As long as their maintained in a hygienic manner,their diet is good, housing meets the requirements and they are regulated to keep up with these standards i can see the benifits

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